I'm doing a series of profiles

of family businesses, our, our

coaching company that we have Kuder

Consulting Group is is focused.

Our specialty is family businesses because

of our backgrounds in family business.

So it's, you know, we're family, small

family businesses that are growing and,

and, you know, we want to honor, highlight

family business and also explore.

I mean, there are some challenges

that are common in family businesses.

I don't want to put anybody in the

place of feeling like they've got to

air their dirty laundry in public.

So, the purpose is really to just be

a nice profile of the company, but I do

want to touch on the aspects of family.

So, one of the questions I

have had a family bonds, help the

business, you know, things like that.

So, history of the business, how you got

into it, what, what your inspiration was,

I think people would like that because I

think, you know, us small family business

owners feel like we don't get we don't

get the props that we ought to, you know?

So what do you think about that?

Sounds good.

Yeah.

What's up guys.

Can you hear me?

Yes, sir.

Excellent.

Gotcha.

Got your Yeti mic and

your pop screen there.

I love it.

Oh yeah, my little podcast room here.

So what inspired you guys to start

this business?

Well, Luke and I grew up

fishing our whole lives.

And when we got a little bit older,

meaning like out of college and

real world hit us, you know, you

realize how precious your time is.

And for us fishermen, people who love

to go out and catch fish, it became a

whole lot tougher than it was in our.

You know, teenage years in our

twenties to spend all day out

there, just trying to figure it out.

And we realized pretty quickly that

we needed some help and there, there

was a problem though, and any small

business, anyone listening to this,

you know, don't start a business

unless there's a problem, right?

You, you know, you need to solve a

problem before you can create a customer.

And what we kept going back to is

there was no one teaching how to go out

there and consistently find the fish.

You know, you had fishing magazines

and you had fishing TV shows and

even YouTube had just got started.

You know, YouTube has blown up really

in the last five, six years, but

those were kind of the three things,

but they're all sponsor driven

and advertisement driven and, and,

and very biased towards one thing.

But, but more importantly, they

left out like the most important

piece, which was the trends, right?

Like actually.

teaching people, because last time I

checked, fish have tails and no fences.

They're not just sitting

in one spot all year long.

They're moving back and

forth with the tides.

They're moving through seasons.

They go out and spawn and no one was

teaching everything from beginning to end.

And so Luke and I had always dreamed

about having a fishing company and it

kind of hit us like, why don't we just

create everything that we wish was around

when we were struggling to catch fish?

And it boiled down to that one word,

the trends about, you know, helping

people find fish fast based on trends

and filling in all the gaps that

are, that are missing out there from

fishing magazines, TV shows, et cetera.

And it took off, you know, we had

a hundred people join our club.

It's, it's a, it's a subscription.

It's a membership to get all of our

content and cheat sheets and courses and

all this great stuff to find the fish.

A hundred people joined

then 500, a thousand.

fiving and then we hit 5,000 and then

we hit 10,000 and we were like, man,

pinching ourselves still are to this day.

And now it's at 25,000, I think

it's 26,000 to be precise.

You know, members are, are now

paying to be part of this club.

And it, it's just been really,

really cool and it's turned

into our own little family.

So we're, we're, we're pleased as

punch and, and, and just, Like I

said, pinching ourselves every day.

Yeah.

The, yeah, the key thing was just that,

that gap, the problem that somebody

new to fishing, they didn't have a one

stop shop to go to, to take them from

wherever they are, whether they're total

beginner or they're gone out at a handful

of times, or even we have now full time

guides joining, but to go out and catch

fish, cause we have tips on, on, on live

bait, which is what most people use, but

also artificial lures, a lot of people

don't think that, that, that they can

catch good saltwater fish with lures.

And that's not true at all.

Like saltwater fish are very aggressive.

And as long as you know, the trends

on where they are, and then just

know a handful of good lures, you

can go out there and catch a ton.

So we just put together the full recipe.

Like Joe mentioned, the

magazines are helpful.

YouTube's helpful.

The TV shows are helpful, but

they're, they're all fragmented.

The, the, like none of them have the

entire recipe where you can just go there.

And then and quickly get

from point A to point B.

And so that's really the problem

that we solve with people's time

is just going out and not having

to try to put it all together.

Because in many cases you hear one

recipe, you get a bit of one recipe

here, a bit of another one recipe here,

and they don't work together at all.

So, so that's really been the.

Just the major, major thing is just

solving fishermen's time issue.

That's beautiful.

I, you, you guys hit on two things that

tr when you said trends, you, you're

not talking about marketplace trends.

You're talking about the, like the, the

trends of how the fish are, you know,

the, the cyclical and seasonal trends

of fish living their lives, right?

Yeah.

And we came from, you know, the

financial world and you had trends

there as well to your point.

And with anything, any kind of business

and industry, you have different trends

and the same with fishing, right?

Our trends happen to be, you know,

weather dependent and tides, you

know, and for saltwater fishing

in particular, you have tides.

And so it's all based on those types

of trends and just like the stocks.

And, and and really anything

that kind of follows cycles and

trends, it can become predictable.

It doesn't mean like, you know,

just like stocks, no one just

picks a winner every time you

can't pick a perfect fishing spot.

But once you study trends and realize

like that is the magic bullet.

Takes a little while, but once you

kind of get that, which is why we teach

it, and we, we harp on it so much,

it just makes fishing so much more

easier and enjoyable and, and which

it ties in our whole mission, right?

Is bringing people together and

having fun and creating memories.

We realized pretty quickly, I mean,

kind of like Disney world, right?

They're not a theme park.

I mean, they're like a

memory creating machine.

I mean, that's, that's really what

a lot of people look at is, man, I

created these amazing memories I paid.

10 times more than I wanted to at Disney,

but I made these amazing memories with

my family and that's, that's really

become our big goal and mission.

It's what kind of gets us fired up every

morning is when we get testimonials,

which come in almost every day now

of someone saying, thank you guys,

because of what I learned in this club.

I just went out and caught, you know, my

first red fish or I got my little nine

year old daughter on her first fish ever.

My son's been begging me fishing

and I failed him five times and

I finally did it because you

guys like that, that's awesome.

Like that, that's what gets us going.

Cause it's not about catching a

state record or anything like that.

It's just about going out and

having fun and creating memories.

And if we can shorten that

learning curve, just like anyone

trying to solve any problem.

If you can shorten the curve for

someone, you're going to have some,

you know, some, some great clients

and hopefully some raving fans.

Yeah.

I mean, I can, I can completely relate.

I, I say to people, you know

I don't really enjoy fishing.

I enjoy catching, you know, and that's

if anybody's been spent a day, you know,

going out and getting, spending the whole

day out working their butt off and not

catching anything, it's, it's a lot more

fun when you come home with something

A thousand times better.

I totally get that.

And so you guys were kind of your

own, your perfect avatar, right?

You, you, I think what you said

was we wanted to solve the problem

that we had and, and it, it was a

problem that a lot of people shared.

Yeah, we've walked through it.

We learned the hard way ourselves and

we basically built it to be something

that we wish we had when we started.

And so that was, that was really the kind

of the foundation, you know, what, you

know, based on every decision we have

is, is this going to help our members

just catch more fish or have more fun

and do it as efficiently as possible?

If the answer is no, we don't do it.

So that's, that's really

been the foundation.

Just make it as easy as possible and

as easily consumable as possible.

That includes the tech stack too.

That's been a big thing.

It is online based.

So we've had to invest a lot of

money in the tech stack, and we're,

we're still doing that recent, we're

doing a big upgrade now just again,

just to make it as seamless and

effortless as possible for members.

So tech stack, you're talking about

what you use to build the courses, record

them, how you serve them up, all that,

Our community that

includes their community, right?

Because that's a big part of it is,

you know, people are wherever my

phone is, or they're on their phones,

you know, actually sharing their

fishing pictures and asking questions.

So that's a big, a big,

a really big part of it.

And then getting the courses

and being able to pick out the

lures and the tackle they want.

It's regardless, I read a book

recently that was, you know,

published in the last 12 months.

And it, it made a case at the end

that no matter what business you're

in, you're in the tech business.

I mean, right.

We're doing Zoom.

This is considered tech.

No matter what you're doing, even

if you're selling cupcakes in one

city in Winter Haven, Florida.

You still hopefully have a

website where people can go order

or pre purchase or do pick up.

I mean, you're still in the

tech industry this day and age.

And so we didn't really, we didn't

really see that in the beginning.

And now it's becoming

more and more evident.

And every time we do, and every time

we invest a little bit more in tech.

We get more people and they share

it because it's, it's, we make

it easier for them to use it.

So I would highly advise anyone listening

outside of all the family stuff, you

know, to, to invest in tech when it makes

sense, obviously don't just waste money

on it, but if you can make it easier

for your customers to interact with

you and to purchase from you and and

to get things done and customer service

interaction, it makes it so much easier.

And I'll show an example.

This is a tides, right?

Tides, tide charts have been something

that have been around forever, right?

Or at least not forever, but

for a very long time, but we

just made it easier, right?

We, we just obviously show the tide

chart, but we give the days like the

upcoming days, what days are most likely

going to have the best, the best feeding

activity based on the tides, based

on the weather, based on the trends.

Then we have the tide chart and the graph,

and then below that we even have by day.

When's the best bite going to be?

So right now is actually

a pretty good bite.

So I might, I might be going to

hurry up and yeah,

end this thing quick,

but it's just all about just

making, just making the customer's

lives or really client's lives as

easy, and as efficient as possible.

So that's, that's been

our goal for everything.

So I know one of the questions

I had was what is, what's your, what

sets you apart from the competition?

You know, a lot of businesses I

think, you know, may struggle a little

bit with, you know, unique selling

proposition or what makes them different.

You know, especially somebody maybe in

the service industry or, you know, I mean,

I, I sell air conditioners or whatever.

How do you guys, do you

guys have any competition?

I mean, you're kind of different

from a service based business.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, we, we purposely,

you created something that, that

was kind of, you know, different.

Right.

And not to say, cause we,

everyone has some competition.

There's been some smaller groups

that have tried to take on, you know,

certain segments of, of fishing.

Like, you know, we're saltwater fishing

Salt Strong is the name of the company.

And so right now we're

basically Texas to Virginia.

There's been a couple and a few

random states, but for the most part,

our competition in terms of, of how

to, and education has been what we

started the, the interview off with.

It's been fishing magazines and

TV shows and kind of YouTube.

So that that's kind of our competition

is, is making people see, and usually

they do pretty quickly because they've

tried all those things, those things.

They're not where they want to

be when it comes to fishing.

So what really made us stand out,

like you're talking about like a USP

unique selling proposition, something

that's like simple and memorable

and also kind of like, Oh, wow.

How like the elevator pitch and it

started, it's, it's morphed over the

years, but it started off because

we want people want to catch fish.

Right.

So it started off saying, we'll

help you catch more fish in

less time, or you don't pay.

It's free.

And then we even went as far as

we'll double your money back.

So we did that for awhile and

that got people's attention.

Cause like, wait a minute.

It's like, yeah.

So if you stick with this a year and you

don't feel like you're catching more fish,

not only would give you your a hundred

bucks, that's the annual 97 for the year.

will literally double it.

And so now people are like,

okay, I have literally nothing.

You know, anytime you can take all the

risk off of your, your client and put

it on you to deliver whatever promise

or service you're making, it just makes

it easier to do business with you.

And we've had a few, we we've

had, you know, some over the years

we've had to give money back.

I mean, some of them, we almost laugh

about I remember this one person, they

went the whole year and we obviously, as

a tech company can see what emails they've

opened, what courses they've been through.

They went through nothing.

And at the end they said, it was

like day 330 and they're like, you

know, you guys stink, I've become a

worse fisherman because of this club.

I won't mind.

And we, we gave them their money back.

But we also looked like they

didn't even, they didn't even try.

It's like joining a gym that had a

guarantee and not going a single time.

And then saying, Hey, I got fat

because of your gym kind of laughable.

But, but you know, and we do lose some

and that's, it was scary at first.

Right.

Remember Luke.

When we first did it, we're like,

man, we're going to lose our butts.

People are, but no, if you have a great

service or product and you believe

in it, put the biggest, boldest,

baddest, scariest guarantee out there.

And, and, and people will start

flocking to you because of it.

And you got to be able

to back it up, obviously.

And and we did.

And so it's out of the 26, 000 people.

I mean, we get, you know, a couple of

year, we'll ask for their money back.

And it's various reasons,

sometimes just financial.

Hey, we're literally broke

and need our money back.

And, you know, we obviously

do that pretty quickly.

So that that's really been the overall

USP is what makes us difference is the

focus on helping you find and catch

the fist faster than ever before.

or you don't pay.

It's that simple.

And now we, yeah, now we talk,

you know, we've tied in tackle

where they get tackle discounts.

And so we've, we've made it a little

bit more even attractive where not

only can we help you find the fish, but

we'll give you, you know, 20 to even 30

percent off, off your tackle as well.

Kind of like kind of like a Costco

membership is probably the best analogy

where, you know, you're, you're paying

a hundred bucks or whatever it is to be

a Costco member and you get access to

their products and discounts, but we have

a little bit more with, with the whole

club in terms of the, the how to videos.

So it's, it's, it's really been fun.

And, and a lot of that, I, I would

urge people, cause I remember

Luke and I got kind of I mean,

we, we had some, not a knockout.

Punches, but you know, that, that calls

definitely a lot of internal discussions

and grief and confusion because we

never really had that thing nailed down.

And we felt like we had

to have it nailed down.

So I would urge people like start with

something, throw it out there and, you

know, and get feedback from people like,

man, it's not really that attractive.

I don't really understand it.

But as soon as we just started saying,

yeah, we help you, John, we help you

catch more fish or you don't pay.

Really like how you, you can't

just end a conversation like that.

You're curious like, well, how

do you, how do you do that?

And so all of a sudden

now we got your attention.

And so once again, it changes over time.

But I, I would urge people

to definitely have one.

You gotta have one that, that set

you, sets you apart from everyone

else, but two, you know, play around

with it and, and don't be afraid

to change it as as you evolve.

Yeah, no telling how

many of those we went through.

We, we, especially in the early years,

the business was pivoting basically

every month because you're right.

We tried something.

Okay.

It doesn't work.

Try something else.

It doesn't work.

Try another thing and just got to keep

doing it until, until the market will

let you know when it's good or when

it's not, you can't force a bad thing.

That's another, another thing that we

we've learned the hard way as well.

But yeah,

How do you mean you

can't force a bad thing?

Sorry.

When you say I can't, you

can't force a bad thing.

You mean.

You just gotta let the market

tell you if it's right or not.

Yeah, like we tried

apparel for a while and

I was going to ask about that.

And so, yeah, that was just a really

tough thing for a small group who doesn't

have the big, the big margins like these,

you know, when you're buying huge books

like the, like the big big companies do.

I mean, it's a really tough

industry and, and if we had, we

kept going down that route, there's

no way we'd still be in business.

It's a, you can't just force it.

One of the best pieces of advice

we got is from Ryan Dyess who's

the founder of Digital Marketer.

And, and we were at a conference

there where where he was, he was

the guy speaking and just talking.

And he said, guys, what I found over

and over again, from owning multiple

businesses and in consulting and

just seeing the problems that we all

have in small businesses especially,

is usually it's an offer problem.

And so what Luke was basically

saying is you, you can't put a crappy

offer out there and just expect to

like spend more Facebook ads on it

or put more lipstick on the pig.

And it's just going to get better.

It, it rarely does that happen.

And we were all guilty.

We did it so many times like, Oh

man, I know this is a good offer.

We're just going to

spend more money on it.

And we're like, Oh man, we should

have just gone with our gut and

probably fix the offer a little bit.

You know, you, it's, it's that

whole lipstick on a, on a pig.

You can't just keep putting more

and more at some point you need to

look and sorry, this offer is not

attracting the people it should.

We know it's good.

We need to tweak it just a little bit.

And, and that, that's been, man, that's

been a godsend for us because we, we, in

the beginning, we spent so, we wasted so

much money doing just the opposite, right?

We'd have something that

we thought was cool.

The market didn't agree and we just keep

trying to spend more money on it and

jam it down people's throat even more.

And it didn't work.

And it wasn't until we really sat

back and really just listened,

you know, you don't have to have

25, 000 customers or clients to.

To get advice.

You could have two you can have one

and just have a one on one to go

take them out to lunch and, you know,

get some, get some honest feedback.

Hey, what is, what are the

real challenges deep down?

What are you struggling with?

And, and how can I, how

can I fix this for you?

And usually if you can find one

person, you can find two and if

you can find two, you can find

10 and and so on and so forth.

Wow.

Yeah, that there's a real nugget

there that, you know, you, you can't

the answer to an offer that's not

converting is not a bigger audience.

Definitely not.

It's a different offer altogether.

Very cool.

Yeah.

And, and, and I'll just kind

of tell you too, cause I know when I

listen to podcasts or videos, I'm like,

all right, well, give me an example

that here's a great example, fishing.

Health doesn't really matter.

There's always something that people want.

And Luke touched on earlier,

it's usually time, right?

We all want something faster

than than we deserve it.

Many cases, right?

Like we all want to lose 20 tomorrow.

We don't want to have to wait

the 60 days it really takes.

And if you're in the weight

loss market, what do you think

is going to sell more, right?

An accountability coach and you know, 60

or 90 day program on how to lift weights

to lose weight or a pill, and it's sad,

but true that the pill will work better.

So it's, it's kind of, you know, give them

what they, they think they, they want.

And then in the back end, you

know, or sell them what they want

and then give them what they need.

And so we used to only lead.

With the how to stuff and

like the trends, right?

And we could say trends

to a blue in the face.

And most anglers, like fishermen is

like, man, I just want to buy a new

rod and reel and some fishing lures

and some line and hooks and et cetera.

So we got so tired of just pushing the

how to stuff down people's throats,

even though that's what they need.

Like, that's the only way you

become a great angler is if you

study and you know the trends.

So everyone knows that, but

just like working out, they

know they need to work out.

But they really just kind

of want the quick fix.

And so as soon as we kind of flipped

it and started, you know, leading

with lures, like, Hey, here's a lure.

And then as soon as they bought it,

we'd almost make fun of ourselves

and say, like on the thank you

video, guys, here's the deal.

You just made a great investment.

These are the best lures, but they're

not going to help you catch more fish.

The only way you're really going

to catch more fish is being in

the right spot at the right time.

And that's why we're helping

you out with our insider club.

And so we.

We sold them what they want at a

great price, you know, and in many

cases we gave it to them for free.

And then on the back end, we

gave them what they really need.

And that's how we really

blew up this business.

Cause people, you know, they're used

to getting a lure and they get mad,

which is why they go buy new lures

and, and they always kind of want to

blame it on the lure and it's usually,

it's usually a lack of knowledge

and intel on how to find the fish.

And so as soon as we started giving

them what they thought they, they

needed, and then on the back end really

served them up exactly what they need,

what they truly need that we exploded.

And we really created a cool community

of people that, that love and

like, and trust us and want to keep

renewing their membership every year.

So it's that would be a good example

of sometimes taking a step back

and saying, all right, if this

isn't working, maybe we should lead

with a slightly different offer.

Very cool.

Thank you.

So I want to, I want to make sure we get

into the family part of it a little bit.

So there's a lot of different family

structures, you know, many business I came

from, you know, I was third generation.

So I wasn't a founder.

And that's, you know, that's one

structure and it has its own challenges.

Other, you know, there's a lot of

husband and wife teams out there.

Out here in Tampa, they're running

businesses, but when Buddy Brews,

you know, one of the big coffee

companies here that husband and

wife, two brothers is another.

And and that's I don't

see it as, as as common.

It may be more common than I realized,

but did you guys always dream

about going into business together?

And how has your brother

relationship worked to strengthen

the business?

Yeah, I would say we have,

that was kind of a, remember

it was Gasparilla Island.

That was kind of my first memory

of it, where we always talked about

how cool would it be to do something

together in the fishing world.

Yeah.

Because we had a trip.

It was a trip every year, and it

started somehow, our dad let us borrow

his boat for like, for a week and,

and I'd brought one of my buddies

and drove, brought one of his, we

rented out this house on the island.

You can only get two by boat.

And we had just a blast and came back

and started telling friends about it and

the next year there was eight people.

Then the year after that, there was

12 and then it got up to 20 got up

to 56 was the was the biggest but but

it was just so much fun and and it

was just fun like a lot of people.

Some people met their spouses on those

trips, it just bonded a lot of people

together and it was a blast and and

and yeah I remember just thinking like

it would be really cool to somehow.

You know, somehow do something

together professionally.

All right.

That we were in college at this

point and and it took, it was years

after where it, where it actually

transpired, but that was, yeah, I agree.

That was when the seed was planted.

And now, you know,

we've been in business.

This will be what, seven, six full years.

So going to hit your seven, somewhere

around there, six, seven years,

Almost seven as Salt Strong

but then, but then two years before

that in the retirement service

industry yeah, Joe was doing

stuff by himself and doing great.

I was in the corporate world for awhile,

seeing how much fun Joe was having.

And and, and one day he just called me and

it's like, it was a really cool experience

where get a call from brother and.

And he was, you know, I

actually need some help.

He was growing his business

faster than he can keep up with.

And I was like in a pretty cush corporate

world, but I didn't, I was at a point.

I got as high as I could.

I was in middle management at a young age.

And I couldn't get up to the next

level for like 20 years, right?

I've been doing the same

thing for a long time.

And I just didn't really, I

wasn't really interested in that.

And I was getting less and less

interested in, I should say.

And then an exciting opportunity came

to actually work with my brother.

It was in retirement services,

which I could care less about, but

but it was just a cool opportunity.

So I jumped on it.

So like, sure, let's do it.

And and that was.

That was a learning experience.

It was great.

And then we sold, yeah, sold

that company and, and started

Salt Strong with those proceeds.

So was that when you guys figured

out you know, each of your, your

strengths and, and how to divide, kind

of divide the, the labor between you?

Is that?

Kind of.

I, I, I wish we would have known to focus

on that quicker because that, that's

where the biggest fights happen, right?

And that, that's, it's the pros and cons

of working with a brother, family member.

Is you can get stuff out quicker.

Like, you know, you don't have to

necessarily like I was in the corporate

world, you know, for, for 10 years myself.

And I remember I'd, you'd be mad at

someone and you couldn't say anything

in the office and you didn't want

to mess with politics in the office.

So you take it home and you'd

sleep on it and you get mad and

you tell your, your spouse at home.

And sometimes it can build up to, to be

really bad and, and, and, and keep you

unfulfilled and, and and it's not healthy.

The good news about Luke and I, and

I'm hoping a lot of family members

are like this, where we don't have

any secrets, we don't hold anything

back, and I ain't sleeping on nothing.

Like, I get on the phone like, Dude,

I'm pissed off, and vice versa.

And so we get stuff out quicker, but also,

you might say stuff to a family member or

a loved one that you might regret, or you

say it more aggressively than you would.

to be subtle to a nice, you know,

co-worker so certainly pros and cons,

but back to your question, I think

the best advice I could give to anyone

would, regardless of the relationship

as a family is to figure out what your

strength is, like what you're best at.

And stay in that lane and get out

of the other person's lane, right?

Because that was where we butted heads

a lot, where he was trying, Luke would

try to do something that I was great

at, which is like sales and copywriting.

And it doesn't mean you don't ask for

advice, you do, you're still a team.

But, but you don't try

to jump in their lane.

And you know, obviously don't ever

say stay in your lane, you jerk.

That doesn't help either.

But, but, but seriously though,

if you can stay in your lane

and just be the absolute best.

And then as soon as humanly possible.

hire someone who, who fits another

weakness that you might have.

Right.

I think, I think in school, they

do one of the biggest disservices.

And I don't know, I hate,

let me take that back.

You know, it's, it's using

the word well rounded, right.

And, and that was something that our

parents taught us is you want to be

well rounded and do a lot of this stuff.

And I think that's a good way to

maybe learn what you're best at.

But to do that your entire life, I think

is a disservice to it, to a business.

It's fine.

Like become a specialist, become an

expert, become the best at whatever little

thing that, that you have definitely

give feedback and consult on the other

stuff, but become the absolute best.

And so I was, you can probably already

tell me just by the way I talk and I'm

the cheerleader, I'm the visionary.

I'm the guy that's come

up with crazy ideas.

Half of them are horrible

or more than half.

But some of them are really good.

And then we get people to implement it.

Luke is not an implementer.

Luke is a really good educator.

I mean, one of the best ever when he gets

in front of a camera, I mean, he's got the

trust, he's got the skill and he gets in

front of a camera with fishing and people

are just like mesmerized and, and, but

the problem we did for a couple of years,

remember Luke is because we're missing a

third piece, right, which is operations.

We, we literally, both of us.

Absolutely are horrible operations.

And that was when the company

would go up and then it would tank.

Cause Luke would have to get off video.

I have to get off doing my stuff and

we'd go into operations and doing

taxes and all this stupid stuff

that we both absolutely dreaded.

And as soon as we, we hired that out

and got one person that loved that.

Like we started taking off and,

and I don't even know, like

we have a CRM, they won't even

give me a username and password.

I don't know how to log in, nor do I care.

And I haven't logged in probably two or

three years, but that's good thing, right?

If you have someone that that's not

their strength, like get them out

of there, stay in their lane and let

everyone else do what they're best at.

So that I wish someone

had told us that earlier.

Maybe we heard it, but we didn't

take it seriously, but it made

all the change in the world.

And that first hire, this is something

that that Justin Tupper, he was

the founder of a company called

revolution golf sold for about

a hundred or so million dollars.

So he did pretty, pretty well,

but he said that first person

you hire needs to one fit.

You know, fit the role that you,

you're, you're not good at, right?

If it's operations for some

people, it's the opposite.

It's sales, but they need to,

to be the absolute best and

they better return a 10 X ROI.

So he says, if you pay that, you know,

the first person you hire, you might only

pay them 40, 000 as a small business.

They literally better be helping

your company make 400 grand.

Like it needs to be that big.

And if not get rid of them, like your,

your very first employee and your second

should be the two most profitable.

There is, because it's

now letting you focus.

And if they're not, like I said, get

rid of them or figure out, you know,

that maybe you don't have that, that

right, that right seat defined yet.

But I thought that was good.

And he's like, I I've seen that

happen over and over again, where

someone's like, just good enough.

And we did that.

Remember, like our first couple of

employees were not 10 X type of employees.

And the second we finally got

a couple and like, boom things

started happening real fast.

So that was really good advice.

Yeah.

Hiring smart is a huge, huge thing.

And and yeah, we learned the

hard way a little bit, but we

also learned the good way too.

It's very noticeable when you

have the right team and it's,

and it's a makes a huge impact.

Yeah.

Well, we could do a whole other

interview just about that.

I know.

Cause today, especially yeah,

everywhere I look, it's, people are

saying, You know, turnover and you

can't get good people can't keep good

people hiring is the biggest issue.

We've got plenty of business.

We can't get the people to do the work.

So that's yeah, man,

we've come back to that.

So you're talking about growing One of

the things in family business, one of

the things I saw was actually when I came

into the family business, there was a guy

already there that was wanting to grow.

And he saw me as a threat, you know,

as a family member, he, he said, he

felt like he could never compete.

So, you know, here you

guys are family business.

How do you incentivize non-family

members to feel like they've got

a career or, you know, and, and.

a place?

Yeah, that's a, that's a tough one.

I mean, you know, we're

still fairly young.

I mean, I've got kids, but they're

not at the point where, you know,

they're, they're able to be hired.

But, but it's interesting to even just,

I'm here in the office and I've heard,

you know, them say that before, Oh man,

we're going to get kicked out as soon

as you kids come in that it's, it's,

it's, I think it's a rational thought.

That just in people have in general,

right, because they've seen it

happen the wrong way so many times.

So right now we haven't had to face that.

I think the, I mean, some of

the best advice I've seen is

I had some friends in Atlanta.

They own one of the big anhyzer

most distributorship there.

And, and it's, those are

very clearly defined.

Like there's even rules that like

your kids are going to take this over.

It stays in the family.

So it's very, very obvious.

Like the old school, you

know, Augustus Bush rules.

I mean, it stays in the family.

Those old Anheuser Busch

distributorships, they don't

really get sold that often, but.

What I saw this guy do, his name is Mr.

Economers, is he made all, all four

of his boys, like if you guys want

to work here, you're going to start

at the very bottom for like, not just

like a couple weeks, like for a year.

And you're literally going to be

the guy who is stocking Bud Lights

in the Publix's or the Kroger's.

I mean, you're literally starting

at the bottom as a stock boy and you

got to work all the, all the way up.

And so I, I, and that's an extreme

example because everyone knew they

were literally going to take their job.

Like they were going to run the company.

Just based on, on how it's

always been been done.

But I thought that was at least

great where you're, you're making,

you know, you were family members.

If they are going to join you

start at the bottom and a couple

of them don't work there anymore.

I will say that a couple of them just

weren't a fit and really didn't love it.

And and realize only one brother

could actually CEO and, and wanted

to go start their own company.

So I, I always thought

that was just a cool way.

And I know they get a lot of respect.

Is a company there in Atlanta, who's

kind of at least done it right.

But, but that, man, that part is tough.

And those are the dynamics that, I

mean, it's a big reason, you know,

you're, you guys are focused on that

because it is it is, it is tricky.

And fortunately, you know, we haven't

had to be there, but if that happens with

either my kids or Luke's future kids sure.

Is that going to make them work for it?

You know, where we could look everyone in

the company and say, man, they deserve.

You know, this promotion or this

role or whatever it might be.

Yeah, I think, you know, at

least in my eyes, it's one of

the best ways to handle it.

Yeah.

Some, what some companies do is actually

require the young generation that wants

to come in to go work at a competitor

or in the industry somewhere for a

few years and get some experience

before they come in the company.

Yeah, so they aren't.

Yeah, I started out deep beaking chicken.

So that's another story too.

Yeah, I know about

working from the bottom.

Yeah, that's the

right way to do it that way.

I mean, whoever it is, you know,

they'll have respect from everybody

else where it's not just an entitlement.

It's actually working up the up the ranks.

So that's Definitely proper way.

Awesome.

Okay.

I want to watch our time here.

We're at 3:35.

So do you guys network with any

other family business owners?

Like, do you have a network

of family businesses per se?

I don't, but we're part of a

group called C12 which is a Christian

organization for like Christian CEOs.

And there are quite a few of of

family, actually a bunch of them.

I'd say half of them just happened to be

a family based business where it was a

second, third generation has taken over

or it's two brothers or husband and wife.

So ironically, there's

a lot of them in there.

So we're, we're, we haven't, we didn't

proactively seek that out, but it is

ironic that we've all kind of attracted

together and we meet once a month

and, and literally take the whole day.

And in a kind of a boardroom type

of meeting, shut down the phones and

there's always kind of an agenda or like

something that we're going to learn.

And then the rest of the time

we just kind of air out issues.

And a lot of times it's about family.

You know, and how do I handle this?

And and, and so it's been really,

really cool to, to see that.

And there's been some, there's been,

you know, one in our group, the two

brothers split up and they both, they were

hitting, they were bumping heads so much.

And they both had their own kind of

specialty, if you will, and thought they

were right and they literally decided

to dissolve the company and start both

started their own and they both did well.

They both have, you know, super successful

10 plus million dollar a year companies.

And they're, you know, obviously

both still friends and so it's been

really cool to kind of see that.

That's really cool.

Funny that you mentioned

two brothers like that.

The two books that I've found that

are written about family issues in

business and how to deal with them

are written by two brothers that

are both second generation of the

Olan Mills photography company.

And and they, they each

went their own way.

They both now are running coaching

businesses, but their own separate ones.

So Olan Mills.

Yeah, Olan Mills .So I was

gonna ask where you go for guidance

on, you know, how the family

relationships impact the business.

It sounds like that's that group,

that networking group is, is

what's filling that for you, right?

That's been a good one.

And then just like any relationship,

it's just open communication.

Right.

And that's what we've been

blessed because, I mean,

Luke and I are best friends.

We talk pretty much every day.

And obviously we're, you know, fishing

once a week and, you know, a lot of stuff

you can kind of talk about in the boat.

It's, it's, I don't know, something

magical about being out in the water

or out in the woods or somewhere and

you just have open conversations.

So, I mean, so much about

it's just communicating.

I mean, if you look at most divorces

in America, it, It, everyone could say

it was this or that, but it usually

started with just bad communicating

and not spending time together talking

about issues that were on your mind.

And so I, that would, I would

urge people first to just, just

talk about it and be honest.

And there's been a couple things

in C12 where we're all like, have

you mentioned this to the person?

And they're like, not yet.

And they're like, well, that's

probably the best place to start.

But it could be tough.

I mean, it could be

tough to have, you know.

tough conversations like that.

So

yeah, just being as Joe

mentioned before, and that's a good

thing about in many cases, siblings

is that it's not that the festering

is really where the damage happens.

And that seemed to happen at least,

at least in our experience, in my

experience, it seemed to happen more,

it happened more in the political or in

the corporate environment where you're

kind of afraid to kind of step on toes

or to be honest and, and forthright.

Whereas your brother, like, oh, he is,

you know I can just, he'll be mad up

if I say this for a little bit, but

we'll get over it and, and get past it.

And and I, and I think that's

been a, a, a big, a big help.

And also we have different, very different

personalities where a lot of the stuff

that he likes doing, he's best at, it's

the opposite for me and, and vice versa.

So we've been, we've been blessed

in, in that as well, where our, our

kind of likes and, and and, and core

abilities are, are kind of on different,

different sides of the spectrum

and complimentary.

Correct.

Yep.

Excellent.

Excellent.

Guys.

Thank you so much.

This has been huge.

Absolutely.

We appreciate it.

And I'm, I'm sure in a couple of years

we'll have more to share and and who

knows what, what, what will happen.

I guess we won't be bringing on any

other family members, but you never

know, you know, mom's tried to get a

job and we said, no way, because they

way over, way over qualified, of course.

So, yeah.

All right.

Awesome.

Well, you guys inspired me.

got, you were kind enough to give me a

copy of your basic, building a business

online course that you were doing and I

just really got interested in marketing.

Keep at it.

All righty.

Well, whenever we get

together, I look forward to it.