In this episode of Celebrating Small Family Businesses, hosts John and Connie Kuder interview Kieron and Carmen James, father and daughter co-founders of two businesses named Wonderful. Wonderful.org began as an online charity giving platform and the success of that led to expanding into a FinTech payment business, Wonderful.co.uk, leveraging open banking to eliminate card processing fees for donations.

They share the inspiration behind their ventures, the journey from frustration over traditional fundraising platforms to developing a completely fee-free service for charities, and how they navigated transforming this solution into a broader payment processing system for small businesses.

The discussion covers the origins of Wonderful, their venture into open banking, insights on running a family business, and their experiences with technology and regulatory challenges.

Additionally, Kieron shares his hobby in deep house music, illustrating the diverse interests that enrich the entrepreneurial journey.

Their charitable giving platform, free for charities to use, is https://wonderful.org/

Their e-commerce payment platform is https://wonderful.co.uk/

The Wonderful Podcast https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-wonderful-podcast/id1731346923

00:00 Welcome to Celebrating Small Family Businesses!

00:08 Introducing Wonderful.org: A Journey from Charity to FinTech

01:14 The Genesis of a Fee-Free Fundraising Platform

04:33 Embracing Open Banking: A Game-Changer for Fundraising

06:55 Navigating the Early Stages of Open Banking Adoption

15:33 The Family Dynamic in Business: Roles and Relationships

22:18 Transitioning the Team to a New Industry

24:24 The Remote Work Revolution and Startup Culture

24:46 The Early Days of Internet Entrepreneurship

26:20 The Unique Dynamics of Working with Family

28:45 Navigating the Challenges of Family Business

30:59 Future Plans and Open Banking Expansion

32:44 Leveraging Past Experiences for New Ventures

38:25 Advice for Small Family Businesses

42:44 Exploring Personal Passions: Deep House Music

Transcript
Speaker:

John and Connie: Hi and welcome

Speaker:

to another episode of Celebrating

Speaker:

Small Family Businesses.

Speaker:

I'm John Kuder.

Speaker:

And I'm Connie Kuder.

Speaker:

And we are doing exactly that.

Speaker:

And today we are celebrating, well, I'm

Speaker:

going to ask the exact organization.

Speaker:

I think it's wonderful.org and also

Speaker:

wonderful, a separate company, but, uh,

Kieron:

Yeah, exactly.

Kieron:

You're right, John,

Kieron:

John and Connie: Karen and Carmen James.

Kieron:

we're trying to confuse

Kieron:

you from the get go by having two

Kieron:

businesses with the same name.

Kieron:

But yeah, we started life as an online

Kieron:

charity giving platform and then we've

Kieron:

also created a payments business.

Kieron:

But more of that to come, I'm sure.

Kieron:

But yes, both called wonderful.

Kieron:

John and Connie: Well, yes, that leads

Kieron:

right into my, my first question.

Kieron:

I know, you know, from looking at your

Kieron:

website a little bit, you guys are

Kieron:

into FinTech, which for our listeners

Kieron:

would be financial technology, and it

Kieron:

sounds like you're kind of deep into

Kieron:

it because you're doing something

Kieron:

called open banking that I had never

Kieron:

heard of until I heard, met you guys.

Kieron:

Mm hmm.

Kieron:

And, uh, and then you're also into

Kieron:

something called deep house music,

Kieron:

which I sampled a little bit of,

Kieron:

and I'm very curious about that,

Kieron:

Yeah.

Kieron:

John and Connie: but yeah, for, so how did

Kieron:

your, how did your business come to be?

Kieron:

Um, do you want me to take that?

Kieron:

Do you want to kick off Carmen

Kieron:

with how we got started?

Kieron:

It might be a good one for you

Carmen:

Yeah, sure.

Carmen:

I can kick off.

Carmen:

So basically we started,

Carmen:

is it eight years ago now?

Carmen:

Seven, eight years ago?

Carmen:

Um, my younger brother was

Carmen:

doing a charity skydive.

Carmen:

Someone at school had cancer, um, so he

Carmen:

was trying to raise some money for that.

Carmen:

And he went to do it through

Carmen:

one of the major fundraising

Carmen:

platforms we have here in the UK.

Carmen:

And when he set up his page he

Carmen:

realised that a bunch of the money

Carmen:

goes towards the platform fees.

Carmen:

So card processing, um, and also

Carmen:

just For running the platform, um,

Carmen:

and it's not really not for profit

Carmen:

that the platform fees, you know, the

Carmen:

company is making money off, off that.

Carmen:

Um, and he kind of got really

Carmen:

frustrated about it, uh, and was

Carmen:

sharing that with the family.

Carmen:

And then I think we were like, Oh,

Carmen:

you know, there's an opportunity here.

Carmen:

It doesn't seem fair that there

Carmen:

aren't fee free fundraising platforms.

Carmen:

Cause we did look around and

Carmen:

there didn't seem to be any that

Carmen:

were a hundred percent fee free.

Carmen:

And that kind of sparked the idea.

Carmen:

We thought, why don't we make our own?

Carmen:

I

Kieron:

Bit of an extra

Kieron:

background for context.

Kieron:

I'd done a bit of running for

Kieron:

charity as well over many years.

Kieron:

And, um, we were coming up, so that

Kieron:

must've been 2015 that we were starting

Kieron:

to think about this and we were coming

Kieron:

up to a big year in 2016 in terms

Kieron:

of lots of family events happening.

Kieron:

So it was my 50th birthday.

Kieron:

We had our 25th wedding anniversary.

Kieron:

Um, I think Dan had his 18th and

Kieron:

uh, and Gabby had a 21st, my middle

Kieron:

daughter, so it was only Carmen actually.

Kieron:

He didn't have any significant

Kieron:

birthday feeling very left out.

Kieron:

Um, so we said 20 sixteen's

Kieron:

coming, let's mark the year and

Kieron:

I'll do the New York marathon.

Kieron:

And, and then we had this kind of

Kieron:

harebrained idea that we would also

Kieron:

build a charity fundraising platform to

Kieron:

collect the donations on the back of,

Kieron:

um, of Daniel's frustration, I think.

Kieron:

Um, so yeah, it was, it was a bit nuts.

Kieron:

We kind of went into the office and

Kieron:

said to the developers who were all

Kieron:

telecoms engineers, do you fancy

Kieron:

building a fundraising platform?

Kieron:

And they said, well, why not?

Kieron:

John and Connie: perfect?

Kieron:

Well, why not?

Kieron:

I love that.

Kieron:

Tech's tech, right?

Kieron:

Or programming is programming,

Kieron:

to an extent that's exactly right.

Kieron:

And I think for them as well, it was

Kieron:

a really great chance to, to, to give

Kieron:

back, you know, that, that genuine

Kieron:

feeling of giving up a lunch break and,

Kieron:

and, and your coffee time weekends.

Kieron:

And just doing something

Kieron:

that's inherently good.

Kieron:

Um, I think we were kind of

Kieron:

quite inspired by the group of

Kieron:

people that we were supporting.

Kieron:

Cause you've got charities, um, their

Kieron:

supporters, and then the fundraisers going

Kieron:

out, doing tremendous things, donors, all

Kieron:

of those people doing wonderful things.

Kieron:

And we thought, well, if we can get

Kieron:

a platform that sits in the middle,

Kieron:

that's completely philanthropic.

Kieron:

Um, and I think the model that

Kieron:

we anticipated using for that

Kieron:

was corporate sponsorship.

Kieron:

So we would find a corporate

Kieron:

sponsor to, to partner with.

Kieron:

To back it, uh, we undertook to do

Kieron:

that with the telecoms business for

Kieron:

the, you know, the first chunk of

Kieron:

money that went through the platform.

Kieron:

And then we, we set out to try

Kieron:

and find a bigger, a bigger

Kieron:

sponsor with deeper pockets

Carmen:

Yeah, and I think we realised

Carmen:

that, ultimately, the main cost of the

Carmen:

platform was the card processing fees.

Carmen:

So every time someone made a donation

Carmen:

with their card, their credit or

Carmen:

debit card, that would incur fees

Carmen:

that we would have to pay to Stripe.

Carmen:

So that basically became the ceiling on

Carmen:

our reach of how big can this platform

Carmen:

get because these card processing fees

Carmen:

are just going to get bigger and bigger.

Carmen:

And we're going to keep having

Carmen:

to ask our corporate sponsors

Carmen:

for more and more money.

Kieron:

and that leads

Kieron:

us into open banking.

Kieron:

John and Connie: Yes, which

Kieron:

yeah, I I don't even think I

Kieron:

can summarize open banking.

Kieron:

My takeaways from from what i've read

Kieron:

and heard is is that it's a more direct

Kieron:

connection to the bank's API or something

Kieron:

so that you're basically bypassing the

Kieron:

processing and all of the fees and so you

Kieron:

reduce it from, you know, well over 90%.

Kieron:

That's broadly it.

Kieron:

Yeah.

Kieron:

And essentially what happened here

Kieron:

was, um, there was an initiative

Kieron:

really to increase innovation in

Kieron:

the, in the financial banking sector.

Kieron:

Um, and the way that that was really

Kieron:

kicked off in, in, in fairly simple terms

Kieron:

is the banks were, the biggest banks were

Kieron:

mandated to open up their APIs to, to

Kieron:

newly created FinTechs like ourselves.

Kieron:

Um, so you need to be authorized.

Kieron:

You're, we're regulated.

Kieron:

It's a, it's a 12 month process

Kieron:

to get yourself authorized.

Kieron:

So it, you know, it's no walk in

Kieron:

the park to do that, but once you're

Kieron:

authorized, that then gives us

Kieron:

permission with the consent of the

Kieron:

person who wants to move the money.

Kieron:

So say a customer to a retailer.

Kieron:

As long as they consent to

Kieron:

Wonderful processing that

Kieron:

payment on, on their behalf.

Kieron:

That money is you quite rightly

Kieron:

say, John, it just moves directly

Kieron:

from their account instantly,

Kieron:

instantly to the retailer's account.

Kieron:

So, you know, typically a card

Kieron:

transaction, there are multiple

Kieron:

intermediaries in that process.

Kieron:

Um, if you're a merchant, then you're

Kieron:

probably waiting for settlement

Kieron:

for a day, possibly longer for that

Kieron:

money to hit your bank account.

Kieron:

So there are massive

Kieron:

advantages with open banking.

Kieron:

And again, as you pointed out, not

Kieron:

least that the huge savings of taking

Kieron:

out all of those intermediaries.

Kieron:

Um, so there's, you know, there's

Kieron:

one company in the middle of

Kieron:

that transaction, which is us.

Kieron:

So we saw this not only as a

Kieron:

means of solving that problem

Kieron:

for the fundraising platform.

Kieron:

It was then very quickly that penny

Kieron:

drop moment when you go, actually,

Kieron:

if this problem exists for charities,

Kieron:

donors, and fundraisers clearly exists

Kieron:

in the, in the commercial sector too.

Kieron:

So.

Kieron:

If we can leverage this, harness the

Kieron:

technology of open banking and create

Kieron:

something that's simple, fast, secure, 95

Kieron:

percent cheaper, um, super transparent,

Kieron:

then that's going to be a good thing.

Kieron:

So again, we just kept the name

Kieron:

wonderful for the commercial business

Kieron:

because really a payment made

Kieron:

using open banking is wonderful.

Kieron:

John and Connie: Yes.

Kieron:

Yeah.

Kieron:

Are you, would you consider yourselves

Kieron:

early adopters in this area?

Kieron:

We, we feel that from

Kieron:

a business point of view, we've

Kieron:

probably struck it just about right.

Kieron:

Um, I can't remember, I should find out

Kieron:

who the quote's attributable to, but

Kieron:

it's kind of stay two steps ahead of the

Kieron:

competition and you risk being a martyr,

Kieron:

stay one step ahead and you're a leader.

Kieron:

Um, And I, and I think that's

Kieron:

kind of where we feel that we

Kieron:

are in terms of the process.

Kieron:

So there were a lot of people that were

Kieron:

in just as open banking was emerging

Kieron:

and clearly like any new technology.

Kieron:

There are, there are

Kieron:

niggles to work through.

Kieron:

It can be quite tricky

Kieron:

in that first instance.

Kieron:

The standards need.

Kieron:

Working on to make sure all the

Kieron:

banks are adopting in the same way.

Kieron:

So we feel like, you know, some of that

Kieron:

difficult work had already been done by

Kieron:

the time we applied for our authorization.

Kieron:

And similarly, you know, when

Kieron:

it's brand new technology,

Kieron:

adoption takes a bit of time.

Kieron:

So we feel like we've got this,

Kieron:

we're early, but we're not so

Kieron:

early that it's going to be

Kieron:

difficult to, to, to gain a market.

Kieron:

John and Connie: I was going

Kieron:

to say that there's a reason

Kieron:

they call it bleeding edge.

Kieron:

exactly.

Kieron:

Yeah, exactly right.

Carmen:

All I was going to say as well

Carmen:

was, um, being in the UK, I think It's

Carmen:

coming to America, I think it's probably

Carmen:

a bit further behind, but at the moment in

Carmen:

the UK, it is quite an emerging technology

Carmen:

that's being adopted quite quickly here.

Kieron:

What we've had, we've

Kieron:

seen a couple of things really

Kieron:

that, that relate to our, our

Kieron:

position in, in, in the market.

Kieron:

One is the, the charity sector.

Kieron:

We often say, wouldn't be probably

Kieron:

your first sector to target innovation,

Kieron:

largely because charities are, you

Kieron:

know, time poor a lot of the time.

Kieron:

It's not that they don't want to do it.

Kieron:

It's just that they don't have the

Kieron:

time to start investigating the latest

Kieron:

trends in technology and adopting them.

Kieron:

So it was, it was kind of nice

Kieron:

in a sense that we, you know, we

Kieron:

We were obliged to adopt this.

Kieron:

It was either that or accept that that

Kieron:

ceiling and our reach and impact was

Kieron:

always going to be low because the card

Kieron:

fees were always going to be there.

Kieron:

Um, so in that sense, removing the

Kieron:

cards and going the open banking

Kieron:

route meant we forced all of our

Kieron:

donors to use open banking now.

Kieron:

That might seem like quite a harsh thing,

Kieron:

but it's also a really positive thing.

Kieron:

Cause if I'm about to donate to

Kieron:

your 5k run and I don't give,

Kieron:

you know, there's no option.

Kieron:

There's no other way of me donating

Kieron:

other than via this platform.

Kieron:

Then I'm probably going to see that

Kieron:

donation through from start to finish.

Kieron:

Even if it's the first time

Kieron:

I've encountered the technology.

Kieron:

Whereas if I was just going to go and

Kieron:

make a purchase of something that I could

Kieron:

buy on another website, then I might go,

Kieron:

Oh, I'm not familiar with open banking.

Kieron:

I'll just go and use

Kieron:

my card somewhere else.

Kieron:

So I think that gave us.

Kieron:

kind of quite a captive audience to,

Kieron:

to really test this technology out and

Kieron:

get some real, real feedback from them.

Kieron:

Um, and as the, the other thing

Kieron:

Carmen's mentioned as well, it's, it's

Kieron:

nascent, but growing really rapidly.

Kieron:

And the, , equivalent of the

Kieron:

IRS, HMRC in the UK is a massive

Kieron:

evangelist for open banking.

Kieron:

So now you can pay any tax

Kieron:

bill at all using open banking.

Kieron:

Including your fines if

Kieron:

you, you get fined by them.

Kieron:

So, so again, huge supporter and saved UK

Kieron:

taxpayers millions and millions of pounds.

Kieron:

John and Connie: That's outstanding.

Kieron:

I'm looking forward to the spread of it.

Kieron:

Yeah.

Kieron:

My, if we were a technology podcast,

Kieron:

I'd be asking all about the security

Kieron:

and so forth and you know, but it

Kieron:

sounds like if it's regulated and

Kieron:

it's, and it's, it's, you've got to

Kieron:

go through that kind of a process.

Kieron:

The, the security of the transactions

Kieron:

is really not a question.

Kieron:

Super secure.

Kieron:

And again you're right,.

Kieron:

It's not a tech podcast, But,

Kieron:

but basically in summary, it's

Kieron:

a tokenized payment that's valid

Kieron:

for, you know, a couple of minutes.

Kieron:

So it is that token, it's almost like

Kieron:

Imagine if you were sending somebody

Kieron:

a check and the, the, the envelope

Kieron:

was intercepted, then, you know,

Kieron:

there's an outside chance you might

Kieron:

be able to rewrite the recipient's

Kieron:

name on the check and somehow do that.

Kieron:

With an open banking transaction,

Kieron:

you can't, once that's being issued,

Kieron:

it can't be revoked or changed.

Kieron:

So it's valid for a few seconds from the

Kieron:

point it's initiated or a few minutes

Kieron:

from the point it's initiated to the

Kieron:

point it's paid and it's tokenized.

Kieron:

So super secure.

Kieron:

John and Connie: Outstanding.

Kieron:

Um, that's exciting stuff.

Kieron:

I hope it spreads around the world.

Kieron:

Well, I think that's very likely.

Kieron:

You're seeing lots and

Kieron:

lots of adoption now.

Kieron:

I think in Brazil, um, actually there

Kieron:

are more alternative, alternative

Kieron:

payments using open banking.

Kieron:

There are now card payments,

Kieron:

which is again, phenomenal

Kieron:

really, because it didn't exist.

Kieron:

I think the start of the pandemic was when

Kieron:

they started to introduce it in Brazil and

Kieron:

it's outstripped card payments already.

Kieron:

John and Connie: I would think the

Kieron:

banks would be somewhat resistant

Kieron:

because it's taking away profits.

Kieron:

Yep, I guess that's true.

Kieron:

Um, and there will be, they're just

Kieron:

going to have to rethink models.

Kieron:

And I think that's the only thing to

Kieron:

do when the technology is, is there and

Kieron:

it's crying out to be used and there's

Kieron:

very little argument for not using it

Kieron:

for a consumer's point of view that just

Kieron:

leads you to rethink, well, we've got

Kieron:

to find alternative ways of generating

Kieron:

funds and maybe isn't three transactions.

Kieron:

Um, so yeah, be interesting

Kieron:

to see how it maps out.

Kieron:

But as I say that, I think that

Kieron:

mandate is really important

Kieron:

to get the innovation going.

Kieron:

John and Connie: Yeah.

Kieron:

And at some point when it becomes

Kieron:

well enough known, it becomes

Kieron:

a social, a cultural mandate.

Kieron:

Exactly, exactly.

Kieron:

John and Connie: you don't want to

Kieron:

be the last adopter at that point.

Kieron:

Absolutely.

Kieron:

John and Connie: So you've used this

Kieron:

successfully for how many years now?

Kieron:

Because you said that you,

Kieron:

you know, you thought, started

Kieron:

thinking about it, what, in 2016?

Kieron:

No.

Kieron:

Now, So a little bit after that, we, we

Kieron:

launched the fundraising platform in 2016.

Kieron:

And, um, in February 2016, we used

Kieron:

cards for a couple of years, completely

Kieron:

unaware that there was any alternative.

Kieron:

And to be honest, it was

Kieron:

really just emerging 2016

Kieron:

OpenBank, probably 2017, really.

Kieron:

Um, so we'd already gone down

Kieron:

the route of, of using cards.

Kieron:

We'd negotiated very, very favorable

Kieron:

rates with our card provider.

Kieron:

Yeah.

Kieron:

Um, just on the basis of what we were

Kieron:

doing, but they were at a point where they

Kieron:

said, we, we really can't drop anymore.

Kieron:

And we understand that, you know,

Kieron:

they, they have mouths to feed.

Kieron:

And as I say, a lot of

Kieron:

intermediaries in those transactions.

Kieron:

Um, so it was really out of almost

Kieron:

desperation of, we've got to

Kieron:

find a solution to this problem.

Kieron:

Is there anything out there?

Kieron:

And I remember, you know, task, what

Kieron:

happened was during lockdown, start of

Kieron:

lockdown, we kind of paused the platform,

Kieron:

um, because we couldn't maintain it.

Kieron:

We were running the telecom service.

Kieron:

And we also, as part of the

Kieron:

telecom service provided free

Kieron:

conferencing, telephone conferencing.

Kieron:

So when Boris Johnson announced

Kieron:

lockdown in the UK, everybody who was

Kieron:

conferencing or everybody who was used

Kieron:

to working in a, you know, in a physical

Kieron:

environment was suddenly conferencing

Kieron:

and the capacity on our network just

Kieron:

went completely through the roof.

Kieron:

So we had to pause that, um,

Kieron:

fundraising platform briefly

Kieron:

to figure out what we did.

Kieron:

Cause we just, we were a small business,

Kieron:

you know, probably eight, nine people

Kieron:

in total running both of those things.

Kieron:

So we said, something's got to

Kieron:

give let's, let's pause briefly

Kieron:

and figure out what we do next.

Kieron:

And Carmen, I'll let you

Kieron:

pick up what happened next.

Kieron:

Cause we, you remember me making

Kieron:

that donation and I'll let you

Kieron:

just describe what happened.

Carmen:

Yeah, I think basically

Carmen:

you came across, uh, it was

Carmen:

another, uh, fundraising platform.

Carmen:

You, one of your friends had

Carmen:

shared something on social media

Carmen:

that they were doing a head shave.

Carmen:

And raising some money for a really

Carmen:

worthy cause and basically you clicked

Carmen:

on, did the donation, didn't even realize

Carmen:

that it was an open banking transaction.

Carmen:

You felt like it was super smooth,

Carmen:

really easy, the money kind of just left

Carmen:

your account and went to the charity.

Carmen:

And then you said, wow,

Carmen:

what just happened?

Carmen:

Go and figure it out.

Carmen:

And I did a bunch of research and

Carmen:

found out all about open banking.

Carmen:

I'd never heard of it.

Carmen:

You'd never heard of it.

Carmen:

And we just thought, wow, this is a

Carmen:

really big opportunity and could solve.

Carmen:

the whole problem we've been having

Carmen:

with card processing fees basically

Carmen:

being this ceiling on our reach.

Kieron:

I think what happened

Kieron:

was from, from the, we closed,

Kieron:

I think the 20th of March.

Kieron:

Um, and we literally just say

Kieron:

goodbye to all the charities.

Kieron:

We thought, well, if we reemerge, it's

Kieron:

going to be a little while off yet.

Kieron:

No one knows what's going to be happening

Kieron:

with a, with a global pandemic anyway.

Kieron:

I think that by that stage in 2020, all

Kieron:

hoping it was going to be a few weeks or

Kieron:

possibly, you know, three or four months.

Kieron:

And, and it was obviously a lot longer

Kieron:

and I think we reopened in October.

Kieron:

So six months later, we'd kind of almost

Kieron:

rebuilt the platform, removed all of the

Kieron:

car processing from it and integrated

Kieron:

a third party open banking provider.

Kieron:

Um, and then set about, you know,

Kieron:

shortly after that, getting our own

Kieron:

authorization and just doing it ourselves.

Kieron:

John and Connie: Cool.

Kieron:

Very nice.

Kieron:

Well, Carmen, you mentioned that you,

Kieron:

uh, you went and did some research.

Kieron:

So that leads me to, you know, as

Kieron:

you guys work together, together in

Kieron:

your own family business, um, how,

Kieron:

how are your roles, what roles do

Kieron:

you play and, and how do you, how did

Kieron:

you define them and keep them, clean?

Carmen:

Yeah, so I've kind of worked with

Carmen:

my dad for years and years, even prior

Carmen:

to this business and other businesses,

Carmen:

I started doing like SEO type content

Carmen:

while I was at university, just writing

Carmen:

bits here and there as a bit of a

Carmen:

way to make extra cash on the side.

Carmen:

Um, and then after university, I

Carmen:

did zoology at university and then

Carmen:

biodiversity and conservation as

Carmen:

well, which is totally different

Carmen:

to anything that I'm doing now.

Carmen:

And once I graduated, I quickly realized

Carmen:

that those types of jobs expect you

Carmen:

to volunteer for a very long time.

Carmen:

for free to get anywhere and I was like,

Carmen:

I can't live in London with no salary.

Carmen:

Um, so I basically started

Carmen:

working, uh, with my dad in the

Carmen:

telecommunications business.

Carmen:

Um, I was doing, I started off doing

Carmen:

a bit of customer support alongside my

Carmen:

university degree and then progressed into

Carmen:

doing more project management type stuff.

Carmen:

And that's when we started Wonderful,

Carmen:

alongside the telecoms company.

Carmen:

And then I basically progressed

Carmen:

from project management

Carmen:

into, , products management.

Carmen:

So working with our users to figure

Carmen:

out what they wanted, how we can

Carmen:

improve, , our products and things

Carmen:

like, which I really enjoyed.

Carmen:

And then recently, just as of this year,

Carmen:

I've transitioned into head of operations.

Carmen:

Um, so I'm co-founder of Wonderful

Carmen:

and head of operations and Kieran's

Carmen:

CEO and co-founder of Wonderful.

Kieron:

And in terms of working

Kieron:

with Carmen, uh, it's a joy.

Kieron:

Um, it really is genuinely and it's

Kieron:

an easy thing to say, but, um, I

Kieron:

think we managed that relationship

Kieron:

of, of, of colleagues and father

Kieron:

daughter really, really well.

Kieron:

Um, so it's, it's different in the

Kieron:

office than, than it is at home.

Kieron:

What's interesting about that was

Kieron:

because I think, I think all of the

Kieron:

family have been involved in the

Kieron:

business at one point or another.

Kieron:

Um, so my middle daughter also did

Kieron:

some content writing and actually

Kieron:

still does now and again, even though

Kieron:

she's got a very busy full time job,

Kieron:

if I ever want somebody to do a bit of

Kieron:

proofreading or go through some ideas

Kieron:

or so on, she's really first rate.

Kieron:

And my son started coding with us, having

Kieron:

never done any coding at all, and is

Kieron:

now running his own businesses in, in,

Kieron:

you know, in coding and development.

Kieron:

Um, so I think they've all been involved

Kieron:

at one point or another, but it was

Kieron:

funny.

Carmen:

Mum

Carmen:

did as well.

Kieron:

Yeah, my wife has too.

Kieron:

So, so yeah, it's always been a bit

Kieron:

of a family affair, but I think it

Kieron:

was done actually the first time

Kieron:

during one of the meetings that,

Kieron:

that in a, on a call with all the

Kieron:

colleagues said Kieran rather than dad.

Kieron:

Uh, and actually it was kind

Kieron:

of a really important thing.

Kieron:

And it, whilst it sounded really

Kieron:

weird, cause he didn't mention

Kieron:

to me that he was going to do it.

Kieron:

So it was just like, Oh,

Kieron:

that's, that's kind of odd.

Kieron:

Um, it made complete sense from the

Kieron:

moment he did that, that that was the

Kieron:

relationship that it was Kieran and Dan,

Kieron:

, and Carmen adopted that immediately.

Kieron:

And I think Gabby adopted that.

Kieron:

And so I find it really strange

Kieron:

cause I don't have to do it, but.

Kieron:

I'm never Kieran outside the office

Kieron:

and I'm always Kieran in the office.

Kieron:

Um, so it's a clever leap, but I

Kieron:

think it's quite an important one.

Kieron:

John and Connie: Oh, it's,

Kieron:

I, I think it's brilliant.

Kieron:

Uh, someone else was telling us one

Kieron:

of the, the ways they handled things

Kieron:

was they, they actually had hats made.

Kieron:

You know, we're, we've got, we're big

Kieron:

on the baseball caps here in the US.

Kieron:

I don't know.

Kieron:

So they had hats made with a,

Kieron:

with a title, you know, like dad.

Kieron:

Mm hmm.

Kieron:

Or boss or whatever it was, and they

Kieron:

would actually, you know, when, when

Kieron:

the conversation needed to shift from

Kieron:

one area to the other in the office,

Kieron:

they would change hats as a reminder.

Kieron:

I love it.

Kieron:

John and Connie: You guys kind

Kieron:

of did a much more subtle,

Kieron:

Yeah, I

Kieron:

John and Connie: that's yeah,

Kieron:

that's so key to keeping, you

Kieron:

know, setting those boundaries.

Kieron:

I think it's absolutely right.

Kieron:

But it's also that for me, it's

Kieron:

that professional respect as well

Kieron:

that it commands amongst colleagues

Kieron:

because guess it is always going to

Kieron:

be difficult for, for, for Carmen and

Kieron:

others, or at least on paper, it's

Kieron:

difficult because you come in and

Kieron:

you're going, yeah, well, it's your dad.

Kieron:

So your head of operations, you know,

Kieron:

but, and I think drawing that, that

Kieron:

line under that very firmly and,

Kieron:

and, and calling me Kieran, I think

Kieron:

really works and underscores that

Kieron:

it's got nothing to do with, with

Kieron:

relationships or familial relationships.

Kieron:

This is professional environment.

Carmen:

and I think it helps as well

Carmen:

that that's not how I started, you know

Carmen:

I've literally like I started doing

Carmen:

customer support and i've worked my way

Carmen:

up over the course of five six years.

Carmen:

So

Kieron:

in a number of businesses that,

Kieron:

and we were very fortunate when we sold

Kieron:

the telecoms business, I think again,

Kieron:

it was, uh, it was, it was kind of a

Kieron:

tribute to the team and everyone else

Kieron:

that we move the entire team from telecoms

Kieron:

into fintech, barring one person who

Kieron:

was locked into the acquisition of that

Kieron:

business because he was, you know, through

Kieron:

and through a telecoms engineer, but

Kieron:

everyone else came with us, which again,

Kieron:

I think is kind of, it's a really nice

Kieron:

message to send to the senior management

Kieron:

team and the owners of the business.

Kieron:

Um, and Carmen's the same, you

Kieron:

know, she's worked on, on multiple

Kieron:

businesses now with me, which is great.

Kieron:

John and Connie: Very nice.

Kieron:

Very nice.

Kieron:

Yeah.

Kieron:

So a lot of one of the family business

Kieron:

advisors, you know, a lot of the, uh, the

Kieron:

bigger family businesses that we don't

Kieron:

focus on their advisors advise that the,

Kieron:

uh, younger generations actually work

Kieron:

outside the business in a competitor's,

Kieron:

uh, field business if possible, or, or

Kieron:

just a related field for a few years.

Kieron:

A, to, for, for them and also for, for

Kieron:

the people that they're going to be

Kieron:

working with later when they, if they

Kieron:

come to the company, they, they find

Kieron:

out first of all, you know, who they are

Kieron:

and, and how they tick in a environment

Kieron:

that's not the family business, but then

Kieron:

they've also kind of earned their stripes

Kieron:

before they come into the business and

Kieron:

they come with some experience and some

Kieron:

ideas and, and, uh, but it's, you know,

Kieron:

it's, it can be, it's also entirely

Kieron:

valid to do it the way you've done it,

Kieron:

Carmen, where you, you know, you work up.

Kieron:

Yeah, I think, I think

Kieron:

that's a really, really good idea.

Kieron:

It seems like something that will be

Kieron:

difficult to retrofit, but, uh, having

Kieron:

gone down that route, we should send

Kieron:

you out into one of our competitors.

Kieron:

They'll think, they'll think you're a spy.

Kieron:

Um, but no, I completely

Kieron:

see the merit in that.

Kieron:

It makes a lot of sense.

Kieron:

John and Connie: it sounds like the other

Kieron:

thing you've done, it sounds intentional.

Kieron:

You brought all your people over.

Kieron:

So, you know, you've, you've clearly

Kieron:

communicated to the people that, that

Kieron:

have worked with you for a long time,

Kieron:

that you value them and that, you know,

Kieron:

it's not a matter of, you're not limiting

Kieron:

their growth by having family members.

Kieron:

No, absolutely.

Kieron:

No.

Kieron:

And I, and I think again, there was a

Kieron:

lot, there was a lot of expectation that

Kieron:

people will be able to make that move

Kieron:

prior to the move happening that then when

Kieron:

you realize just how big a move it is,

Kieron:

it's fundamentally, it's not like, you

Kieron:

know, pivoting in a business or, or, or

Kieron:

going into a slightly different area of

Kieron:

the same business, you know, maybe from

Kieron:

lending into payments in FinTech or from,

Kieron:

from outbound to inbound in telecoms.

Kieron:

This was no, it's a completely different

Kieron:

industry with a completely different

Kieron:

regulator, a completely, Um, rigor in that

Kieron:

regulation, clearly financial services.

Kieron:

I'm not saying that telecoms isn't

Kieron:

regulated effectively, but it's a

Kieron:

different level of regulation from

Kieron:

experience was, was a, was a big piece

Kieron:

for everyone, and I think, I don't think

Kieron:

we underestimated it or maybe we did.

Kieron:

But people handled it incredibly well.

Kieron:

Um, significant move.

Kieron:

I think you're right.

Kieron:

When you alluded earlier, you know,

Kieron:

you're an engineer, you're a developer,

Kieron:

it kind of doesn't matter if you're,

Kieron:

if you're selling widgets, it's

Kieron:

the same approach I've always had.

Kieron:

It doesn't matter what we're SEOing

Kieron:

for, whether it's a payment, a company

Kieron:

formation, a domain name registration,

Kieron:

telecom service, as long as the approach

Kieron:

is consistent throughout, then it's

Kieron:

The product probably matters less.

Kieron:

Um, but in terms of a lot of that

Kieron:

other stuff I think we probably

Kieron:

had underestimated just what a

Kieron:

leap it was going to be to do

Kieron:

that fca authorization for example

Kieron:

John and Connie: And it sounds like,

Kieron:

uh, that, uh, well, I went through,

Kieron:

I came in late into a corporate

Kieron:

environment, but it was a brand new

Kieron:

shared services center that was, I think

Kieron:

just under a year old when I got there.

Kieron:

And so they had all started in a,

Kieron:

in an offsite, basically a series of

Kieron:

closets, I think, and, and they, you

Kieron:

know, they, they didn't have a facility.

Kieron:

They were still being built.

Kieron:

And so the team gelled going through that

Kieron:

startup, rough startup process together.

Kieron:

I'm thinking that probably

Kieron:

happened with your team as well.

Kieron:

It's like everybody was a new hire,

Kieron:

but you already had the relationships.

Kieron:

Yeah, no, exactly, right

Carmen:

I think that made it really

Carmen:

strong actually because we did

Carmen:

all have that trust in each other.

Carmen:

We had those relationships

Carmen:

already going into it.

Carmen:

Um, and we all kind of knew each

Carmen:

other on a personal level as well.

Carmen:

So, whereas if we'd just built the company

Carmen:

from scratch with completely a new team

Carmen:

and also we're broadly remote, I'd say

Carmen:

we're pretty much 100 percent remote.

Carmen:

We meet once a month in person.

Carmen:

Um, that would have been very hard

Carmen:

to do if they were all complete

Carmen:

strangers that had never met before.

Carmen:

John and Connie: Oh, absolutely.

Carmen:

Heh heh

Kieron:

But you remind me actually Our

Kieron:

other co-founder is a guy I've worked

Kieron:

with for 20 odd years now who's our

Kieron:

CFO , and I remember joining his business.

Kieron:

It was probably one of the first

Kieron:

that I joined having sold a web

Kieron:

design business in the late 1990s

Kieron:

and his business was domain name

Kieron:

registration and it was exploding.

Kieron:

You know, it was the time when

Kieron:

everybody was buying a com net org and

Kieron:

whatever country domain name they could

Kieron:

get with my, my brand new venture.

Kieron:

com.

Kieron:

Um, and they were doing domain names.

Kieron:

So it was just going through the roof.

Kieron:

Um, and I arrived at his office

Kieron:

and this was proper startup life.

Kieron:

And I said, where's my desk?

Kieron:

And literally pointed over

Kieron:

to the corner to a flat pack.

Kieron:

I said, it's over there and speak

Kieron:

to John about a screwdriver.

Kieron:

He'll help you put it together.

Kieron:

But, but again, just alluding

Kieron:

to that, that camaraderie of

Kieron:

literally putting up the desk before

Kieron:

he's sitting on them was great.

Kieron:

It was really, really good.

Kieron:

I think everyone felt like

Kieron:

it was, things were moving.

Kieron:

Like physically moving.

Kieron:

It was brilliant.

Kieron:

John and Connie: That they, you were

Kieron:

so busy that you didn't have time

Kieron:

to put the desk in for the new guy.

Kieron:

No, absolutely.

Kieron:

There were lit, you know, people

Kieron:

were arriving so fast that it was

Kieron:

just, you know, build your desk

Kieron:

and once it's up, go and grab your

Kieron:

computer from someone and away you go.

Kieron:

John and Connie: Well, it also, there's a,

Kieron:

an aspect of that that comes to mind also

Kieron:

of the, you're not stepping into somebody

Kieron:

else's shoes when you do that, right?

Kieron:

You're not trying to, wondering what

Kieron:

the last guy did that you're, you're,

Kieron:

you're being watched to make sure you

Kieron:

don't do or do, do right or whatever,

Kieron:

No, absolutely.

Kieron:

John and Connie: that's a brand new desk.

Kieron:

Wow.

Kieron:

What do you love most

Kieron:

about working with family?

Kieron:

What, is there something

Kieron:

that really stands out?

Kieron:

I think, I think one of the

Kieron:

positives is also a negative in that

Kieron:

you can chew over stuff at the dinner

Kieron:

table, literally some of the day's work.

Kieron:

Um, but that has its downsides too.

Kieron:

I think, I think.

Kieron:

Oftentimes, it's great to be able to

Kieron:

share things at that level that, you

Kieron:

know, it's a family member and you can

Kieron:

go beyond a boardroom conversation.

Kieron:

Um, but as I say, it also has its

Kieron:

downsides of sometimes you do need

Kieron:

to just switch off and chill out.

Kieron:

Um, I don't know whether you've got

Kieron:

any views on that Carmen as well.

Carmen:

Yeah, I think it's hard to get

Carmen:

the balance right sometimes, but for me

Carmen:

I think one of the biggest positives is

Carmen:

we can be 100 percent transparent with

Carmen:

each other, like I see you as a colleague,

Carmen:

but also at the end of the day, you're my

Carmen:

dad, so if I'm worried about something at

Carmen:

work or you know, I have any concerns or I

Carmen:

have any ideas, I'm never hesitant to run

Carmen:

them by you, I don't ever feel nervous.

Carmen:

Because I, you know,

Kieron:

And I think, I think knowing

Kieron:

so much more about somebody as

Kieron:

well is a massive inspiration.

Kieron:

You know, Carmen's gone through, uh, a

Kieron:

fairly major health crisis a little while

Kieron:

ago, which she's coped with incredibly

Kieron:

well, um, and I'm really, you know, turned

Kieron:

her life around in so many ways that

Kieron:

it's a source of huge inspiration for me

Kieron:

that goes beyond that family life, but

Kieron:

into the workplace as well, because it's

Kieron:

just that ability to Whatever's thrown

Kieron:

at you, I find quite inspirational.

Kieron:

John and Connie: Fabulous.

Kieron:

That's, yeah, that's something you

Kieron:

don't often hear parents say, is

Kieron:

that they find their child inspiring.

Kieron:

Mm hmm.

Kieron:

I love

Kieron:

No, I mean, really, and

Kieron:

genuinely we, you know, we, I've

Kieron:

always been quite into health and diet,

Kieron:

I've been vegan for 20 odd years now.

Kieron:

And what Carmen did after the cancer

Kieron:

in terms of taking a holistic approach

Kieron:

to, to, to everything was just, it made

Kieron:

my vegan diet look like a, like a walk

Kieron:

in the park, to use that term again,

Kieron:

because it was just so full on, um, And,

Kieron:

and the same with exercise and so on.

Kieron:

It's been, it's, it's incredible to watch

Kieron:

and also how she's just taken that in her

Kieron:

stride really, and just got on with it.

Kieron:

It's really, it's really impressive.

Kieron:

And, and if you want a reference for

Kieron:

work, what, what best, what better

Kieron:

reference can you have than that?

Kieron:

John and Connie: Absolutely.

Kieron:

Is there something about being in business

Kieron:

with family that you know now that

Kieron:

you wish you'd known when you started?

Kieron:

Do you know, it feels like

Kieron:

I've been doing a personally, this

Kieron:

is my take, Carmen might have a

Kieron:

different view, but my takes feel

Kieron:

like I've been doing it for so long.

Kieron:

It does feel pretty second nature now.

Kieron:

Um, I think the only thing, as I

Kieron:

say, it will be occasionally, it

Kieron:

will be nice to know you can draw

Kieron:

a line under it and just stop.

Kieron:

And I think there are occasions when

Kieron:

we do, I mean, Carmen will probably

Kieron:

tell you that there were times and

Kieron:

I'll just go, no, it's the weekend.

Kieron:

Let's just not.

Kieron:

Um, and that's not always easy,

Kieron:

but yeah, that's probably the one

Kieron:

it's for me, it will be that just.

Kieron:

Kind of being able to say, no, let's,

Kieron:

let's just stop talking about work.

Carmen:

Yeah, I think that's the hardest

Carmen:

thing because If you have an idea or

Carmen:

something comes to you that you want

Carmen:

to discuss with your colleague, you

Carmen:

probably think it's inappropriate to

Carmen:

message them at the weekend, but if

Carmen:

you're literally seeing each other

Carmen:

for lunch anyway, or you're bumping

Carmen:

into each other in the living room

Carmen:

or kitchen, you might mention it.

Carmen:

So it's just trying to keep those

Carmen:

boundaries can be hard, I think.

Carmen:

John and Connie: That,

Carmen:

that says it perfectly.

Carmen:

And, and that's the same thing on, you

Carmen:

know, we're in the workplace where the

Carmen:

family, uh, relationships, you know,

Carmen:

where the family drama, if there is

Carmen:

any, can come out in the workplace

Carmen:

inappropriately is because you're so

Carmen:

close to that edge of, you know, you

Carmen:

just slide into that other role and

Carmen:

that's, that's where the hat's got to be,

Kieron:

Yeah, I think

Kieron:

that's, that's very true.

Kieron:

And it's something that we do studiously

Kieron:

try and avoid any of that and just leave

Kieron:

it at home or leave it at work, um, as

Kieron:

much as you can, you know, we're human

Kieron:

at the end of the day and it will happen

Kieron:

from time to time, but, um, you know,

Kieron:

as long as, again, people say, you know,

Kieron:

there are no failures, it's just lessons

Kieron:

learned and it's the same thing if you

Kieron:

learn from that and try not to do it

Kieron:

again, and then, then that's progress.

Carmen:

I think it also

Carmen:

helps that I'm 31 now.

Carmen:

If we tried to do this while I

Kieron:

Oh, yes.

Carmen:

I think it would

Carmen:

have been very different.

Carmen:

John and Connie: right.

Carmen:

There's got to be a maturity level, right?

Kieron:

Oh, yes.

Kieron:

No,

Carmen:

we'd have been able to do it then.

Kieron:

that's,

Kieron:

John and Connie: Yeah.

Kieron:

that's exactly right.

Kieron:

I mean, yeah, the thought of

Kieron:

trying to do this when you were

Kieron:

15, no, probably wouldn't work.

Kieron:

John and Connie: So what's next,

Kieron:

uh, for the company and for you

Kieron:

guys, uh, you know, together?

Kieron:

Well, we, we just said we'd

Kieron:

been providing the open banking donation

Kieron:

services now for us in our own right as an

Kieron:

FCA authorized entity for 18 months or so.

Kieron:

We're just starting the

Kieron:

commercial product rollout now.

Kieron:

So this is the time when we start

Kieron:

billing people for the service.

Kieron:

So that's going to be interesting.

Kieron:

Um, but the, the beauty of open

Kieron:

banking is that 95 percent savings.

Kieron:

So we see that as, as being, you know,

Kieron:

there'll be a strong appetite for it.

Kieron:

We're sure.

Kieron:

And I think the idea is really to

Kieron:

just start integrating with as many

Kieron:

different e-commerce platforms,

Kieron:

accountancy, software packages, um,

Kieron:

electronic point of sale providers.

Kieron:

There are so many places we can

Kieron:

just bolt a payment solution, an

Kieron:

open banking payment solution to

Kieron:

the end of that flow, uh, and save

Kieron:

the merchant, uh, You know, a lot of

Kieron:

money that that's what we plan to do.

Kieron:

You alluded earlier to the, you know, this

Kieron:

probably not being ready in the, in the U.

Kieron:

S.

Kieron:

just yet, it's going to happen.

Kieron:

You're clearly the most technically

Kieron:

ready I would imagine on the planet

Kieron:

in terms of having the mobile

Kieron:

coverage and everything else.

Kieron:

So I think that mandate

Kieron:

will happen in due course.

Kieron:

There's clearly a lot of interest

Kieron:

in it not happening soon, but.

Kieron:

I'm sure at some point the

Kieron:

pressures will, will come to bear.

Kieron:

So we're, we're fortunate in that

Kieron:

the UK market is reasonably mature.

Kieron:

So we've got a lot of, we've got

Kieron:

about five and a half million small

Kieron:

businesses to go at in the UK,

Kieron:

which is a fairly big market for us.

Kieron:

Uh, and I think then we'll start to

Kieron:

look at the EU market and then further

Kieron:

afield, you know, there are a number of

Kieron:

countries where adoption is fairly strong.

Kieron:

So it'll be an international rollout

Kieron:

once we've kind of conquered the UK.

Kieron:

John and Connie: That sounds very cool.

Kieron:

Is there any, like you, you mentioned

Kieron:

with the, , telecoms and the, the

Kieron:

conferencing at the beginning of

Kieron:

the , COVID, , lockdown, you know, how

Kieron:

the, the system, the The pressure on

Kieron:

your systems, you know, to, to handle

Kieron:

the increased capacity was, was high.

Kieron:

Do you anticipate anything like that

Kieron:

with the open banking or, or is it not an

Kieron:

It's, it's one of the things.

Kieron:

I was asked about a lot and obviously

Kieron:

as a founder going into a completely

Kieron:

different sector, you're also a little

Kieron:

bit nervous that you think you can

Kieron:

do this, but is there some secret

Kieron:

source that you just don't know about?

Kieron:

But one of the things that made me

Kieron:

confident going into this is if you think

Kieron:

about the amount of data that you're

Kieron:

processing when you set up a telephone

Kieron:

call and then maintain that telephone

Kieron:

call, it's quite, it's not trivial.

Kieron:

You know, it's a significant

Kieron:

amount of data that's being

Kieron:

processed with, with a transaction.

Kieron:

It's actually.

Kieron:

quite considerably less.

Kieron:

And certainly what you're not

Kieron:

doing is maintaining, maintaining

Kieron:

a call in progress for 10

Kieron:

minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes.

Kieron:

And as I said, we were very big

Kieron:

in the conference calling space.

Kieron:

So they might be 90 minute calls with,

Kieron:

you know, 70, 80 participants on them.

Kieron:

So we were kind of used to that.

Kieron:

Um, whilst we were nervous about the

Kieron:

secret source, it didn't materialize.

Kieron:

We found that we could integrate the banks

Kieron:

really quickly and everything worked.

Kieron:

I shouldn't say this.

Kieron:

I'm tempting fate, but touch

Kieron:

wood work really, really well.

Kieron:

And we continue to integrate more

Kieron:

banks, but so far we've not seen any

Kieron:

concerns at all about handling volume.

Kieron:

It feels like it's something we're

Kieron:

probably quite adept at doing.

Kieron:

So

Carmen:

I think the other

Carmen:

John and Connie: Carmen.

Carmen:

thing that's a benefit is because

Carmen:

we saw that with the telecoms company,

Carmen:

and we've built this from the start,

Carmen:

we've always thought, keep scaling in

Carmen:

mind, make sure it's scalable, make sure

Carmen:

the technology behind it is something

Carmen:

that can handle, you know, suddenly

Carmen:

going viral and things like that, so.

Carmen:

We've been lucky that we've had

Carmen:

that experience in the past with

Carmen:

another business and known to

Carmen:

implement that from the start.

Kieron:

yeah, the COVID thing was,

Kieron:

was incredible for the telecoms

Kieron:

because they were, everyone really

Kieron:

mucked in very quickly, everybody,

Kieron:

all the suppliers, the whole lot.

Kieron:

So we were seeing things like it

Kieron:

mentioned 20 fold increase in capacity

Kieron:

on the network in 10, 14 days.

Kieron:

It was, it was insane, but processes

Kieron:

where we will be buying capacity

Kieron:

from upstream tier one providers that

Kieron:

sometimes, well, it usually would

Kieron:

take, you know, maybe 48, 72 hours.

Kieron:

They were turning around in 40 minutes.

Kieron:

Um, you were just saying you need

Kieron:

more capacity, there's more capacity.

Kieron:

And it, and it was, it was a real

Kieron:

spirit of we've got to make this work.

Carmen:

I think it was because it was

Carmen:

Covid as well, everyone was kind of

Carmen:

coming together, the whole country,

Carmen:

well I guess the whole world felt like

Carmen:

it kind of was coming together to try

Carmen:

John and Connie: Yeah.

Carmen:

The whole world focused on one problem.

Carmen:

It was

Carmen:

Yeah.

Kieron:

exactly.

Kieron:

John and Connie: historic.

Kieron:

I mean, we were, we were seeing

Kieron:

like sign up, we, we had signups to that.

Kieron:

And say, typically if we were doing

Kieron:

half a dozen a day, signing up to use

Kieron:

the service, it was going, I think

Kieron:

one of the busiest days it went from,

Kieron:

from that half dozen to like 890,

Kieron:

you know, new businesses signing up

Kieron:

to use that conferencing service.

Kieron:

Um, and then of course, what happened?

Kieron:

Uh, is everyone started using zoom.

Kieron:

So they all went from telephone

Kieron:

to video and we just saw that

Kieron:

immediately decline as well.

Kieron:

So everyone got very

Kieron:

comfortable with video calling.

Kieron:

John and Connie: Yes.

Kieron:

And, and zoom, uh, early on, or I saw

Kieron:

a, uh, several months into COVID, there

Kieron:

was an article letter, I guess, written

Kieron:

by the, uh, president of the company.

Kieron:

And he said, before COVID, we were

Kieron:

trying to figure out how to scale from

Kieron:

11 million free accounts to 13 million

Kieron:

free accounts in the, in the year 2020.

Kieron:

And within three months,

Kieron:

we were at 127 million.

Kieron:

Absolutely unbelievable.

Kieron:

But we, we got.

Kieron:

John and Connie: And, and they did

Kieron:

it pretty much without a hiccup.

Kieron:

Yeah, I would agree.

Kieron:

You know, absolutely hats off to them.

Kieron:

Although we were frustrated at

Kieron:

the time as well, because Probably

Kieron:

the same way you are as well, but

Kieron:

Zoom became the, uh, the verb.

Kieron:

And, and when you're trying to run

Kieron:

a business as a competitor, the last

Kieron:

thing you want is the BBC every day

Kieron:

saying, and so and so was on a, well,

Kieron:

it was Zooming, you know, it was

Kieron:

just like, please, there are other,

Kieron:

other conference services exist.

Kieron:

John and Connie: Yes.

Kieron:

I hadn't thought about that.

Kieron:

Sorry.

Kieron:

Oh my goodness.

Kieron:

Well, so something that just popped into

Kieron:

mind, I was going to, you know, our,

Kieron:

our, our kind of wrap up question is how

Kieron:

can people reach you, but is there any.

Kieron:

Have you given any thought to, uh, doing,

Kieron:

having some sort of a consulting arm in

Kieron:

your business since you've already been

Kieron:

through this whole process and you, you

Kieron:

can see that it's, there's going to be

Kieron:

an adoption curve happening here in the

Kieron:

U S as part of how can people reach you?

Kieron:

Can they reach out to you about how

Kieron:

to implement this when the time comes?

Kieron:

Absolutely.

Kieron:

Without a doubt.

Kieron:

We mentioned we're focused

Kieron:

on the small business sector.

Kieron:

That's because that's what we've

Kieron:

done in all of the other businesses.

Kieron:

It's always been a case of trying

Kieron:

to target that sector and make

Kieron:

something very easy to find.

Kieron:

Easy to register for and easy to use.

Kieron:

So really focusing again

Kieron:

on those time poor people.

Kieron:

So typically small businesses are very

Kieron:

similar to charities in that respect.

Kieron:

Um, so that's our focus, but clearly,

Kieron:

as you, as you say, a lot of the work

Kieron:

that we've done, that technical piece

Kieron:

of integrating all the banks, not

Kieron:

only for payment services, but account

Kieron:

information services, which is another.

Kieron:

Another, facet of open banking, , we've

Kieron:

got a huge amount of experience.

Kieron:

So we are certainly open to inquiries

Kieron:

from, from, you know, people who are

Kieron:

looking to us for consultancy services

Kieron:

or enterprise businesses as well.

Kieron:

Um, and I think there'll be,

Kieron:

I mean, there, there's a huge

Kieron:

opportunity certainly in the U S

Kieron:

once that, once that happens and

Kieron:

we'll be looking at that in earnest.

Kieron:

John and Connie: All right.

Kieron:

So what, what advice would you

Kieron:

give a small family business?

Kieron:

Just starting out.

Kieron:

The, the one.

Kieron:

John and Connie: What would be the

Kieron:

there are a couple from

Kieron:

me that I often say to people

Kieron:

who are just founding businesses.

Kieron:

One is, is it's not, they're

Kieron:

probably both fairly obvious, but the

Kieron:

tenacity is a really important one.

Kieron:

Um, just keep going.

Kieron:

I think it's always a good thing to, if

Kieron:

you, if you're brand new and starting

Kieron:

a business, I think always think it's

Kieron:

a good thing to try and find something

Kieron:

that you genuinely interested in.

Kieron:

Um, but then one of the things that

Kieron:

I'll say a lot of the time is you

Kieron:

need to be very, very black and

Kieron:

white when it comes to the numbers.

Kieron:

So what I mean by that is often if you've

Kieron:

got a passion for something, you can be

Kieron:

a bit blinded by that passion and think

Kieron:

it's a fantastic business opportunity

Kieron:

because it's something that you love.

Kieron:

Um, but if the numbers aren't stacking

Kieron:

up, so you start selling that fantastic

Kieron:

opportunity that you've come across

Kieron:

because you're passionate about it, but

Kieron:

there isn't really a market for it, then

Kieron:

always be prepared to make that pivot

Kieron:

or ultimately, if it's not working, you

Kieron:

know, move away, think of something else.

Kieron:

Um, and the way that I'll summarize

Kieron:

that often is be passionate and

Kieron:

dispassionate in equal measure.

Kieron:

So be really passionate about the idea,

Kieron:

but be dispassionate about those numbers.

Kieron:

Look at them in the cold, hard light

Kieron:

of day and, and understand what

Kieron:

they're telling you and the, and the

Kieron:

changes that you might need to make.

Kieron:

So I think those are the, the.

Kieron:

the thoughts that have

Kieron:

stuck with me for a while.

Kieron:

John and Connie: And Carmen, from

Kieron:

the sec from the next generation,

Carmen:

yeah, I'd say for me, I'd say

Carmen:

if you're doing a family business,

Carmen:

definitely try and establish a healthy

Carmen:

division of family time and business time.

Carmen:

Figure out your own ways to do

Carmen:

it, but just try and keep that

Carmen:

somewhat separate, at least for a

Carmen:

certain period of time every week.

Carmen:

But I'd say it's a really great

Carmen:

opportunity because I think there's

Carmen:

a level of investment and passion

Carmen:

in the business that is, like,

Carmen:

is driven because of your family.

Carmen:

You, you both care so much, you know,

Carmen:

you're working on something together,

Carmen:

you've lived your whole lives together.

Carmen:

And you have that bond that

Carmen:

I think that that's a really

Carmen:

powerful tool for a business to

Carmen:

have that driving force behind it.

Kieron:

I agree.

Kieron:

It's infectious.

Carmen:

Yeah, exactly.

Carmen:

John and Connie: is.

Carmen:

It is.

Carmen:

Wow.

Carmen:

You guys are fabulous.

Carmen:

You're wonderful.

Carmen:

How's that?

Kieron:

You can have that one for free.

Carmen:

you.

Carmen:

John and Connie: Thank you.

Carmen:

Thank you very much.

Kieron:

We normally, we normally

Kieron:

charge 5 and we've got it registered

Kieron:

now every time anyone says wonderful.

Kieron:

So if the payments model doesn't

Kieron:

John and Connie: Checks in the mail.

Kieron:

So your website for your

Kieron:

charitable giving is wonderful.

Kieron:

org.

Kieron:

And that is for people that, charities

Kieron:

that want to set up this very low cost

Kieron:

transaction of receiving money, but it's

Kieron:

also for donors to, to donate money to the

Kieron:

charities that you've got listed, right?

Kieron:

So yeah, a couple

Kieron:

of points of clarification.

Kieron:

It's free for charities.

Kieron:

It always has been.

Kieron:

It always will be.

Kieron:

It's non negotiable.

Kieron:

It's 100 percent free and we

Kieron:

will never change that no matter

Kieron:

what happens to the business.

Kieron:

Um, charities need to be

Kieron:

registered in the UK currently.

Kieron:

Um, so it's only UK charities and

Kieron:

for the donors and fundraisers.

Kieron:

Yeah, absolutely.

Kieron:

You're right.

Kieron:

They, they, a fundraiser would set up a

Kieron:

page, for example, to, to run a marathon

Kieron:

or do a triathlon or bake a cake or jump

Kieron:

out of an airplane, um, and raise money

Kieron:

from friends, colleagues, and family.

Kieron:

Equally, the charities can just

Kieron:

set up a direct donations page on

Kieron:

there or use a button on their own

Kieron:

website to take advantage of that

Kieron:

free donation processing service.

Kieron:

So.

Kieron:

John and Connie: Really simple.

Carmen:

And then our commercial website,

Carmen:

um, for our sort of e commerce plugins

Carmen:

and stuff like that is wonderful.

Carmen:

co.

Carmen:

uk

Carmen:

John and Connie: We'll,

Carmen:

we'll also put this.

Carmen:

Yeah.

Carmen:

These are, this will be in the show

Carmen:

notes and there'll be a backlink.

Carmen:

Like again, I, I don't know where

Carmen:

our listeners will be, if they're,

Carmen:

how many we'll have in the UK.

Carmen:

I hope they'll, that'll grow and that'll

Carmen:

be a, but, but also I see, you know, as

Carmen:

this grows in the U S that, you know,

Kieron:

We'll be happy to pop

Kieron:

back and tell you more about what

Kieron:

we're doing if you'll have us.

Kieron:

John and Connie: We'd love that.

Kieron:

We'd love that.

Kieron:

Well, thank you so much for spending

Kieron:

this time with us, and it's been a

Kieron:

pleasure getting to know you both.

Kieron:

I got one question.

Kieron:

What about the music thing?

Kieron:

Oh, yeah.

Kieron:

Deep House music.

Kieron:

What's Deep House music?

Kieron:

So

Kieron:

John and Connie: How do you define it?

Kieron:

It's a variation of house music,

Kieron:

uh, tends to be fairly bass heavy.

Kieron:

I got into it because

Kieron:

I was a poor drummer.

Kieron:

So, so I used to play the drums

Kieron:

in an indie rock band back

Kieron:

in the very, very early days.

Kieron:

Um, and I was a lazy drummer.

Kieron:

So I never practiced all of my

Kieron:

rudiments and all of that clever

Kieron:

stuff that you've got today.

Kieron:

I was just, I just couldn't be bothered.

Kieron:

It was all too much like hard work.

Kieron:

So I often had these rhythms in my head.

Kieron:

But I couldn't play them because

Kieron:

technically I wasn't able to do it.

Kieron:

So I discovered electronic music a few

Kieron:

years ago and suddenly I could sit in

Kieron:

front of a computer and it effectively,

Kieron:

you know, grid out those things that were

Kieron:

in my head and have the machine play it.

Kieron:

Um, and then really one of the

Kieron:

challenges I think for music production

Kieron:

is trying to make anything that's got

Kieron:

a heavy bass line, not sound muddy.

Kieron:

And I like a challenge.

Kieron:

So that, that was the thing that

Kieron:

really drove me to doing that.

Kieron:

Can I, can I make music that's got

Kieron:

kind of quite a heavy baseline,

Kieron:

not sound muddy and let's start

Kieron:

doing some deep house music.

Kieron:

So yeah, bass heavy

Kieron:

house music effectively.

Kieron:

John and Connie: I like that.

Kieron:

All right.

Kieron:

Well, thank you so much for clearing

Kieron:

that up, because I know he was

Kieron:

going to ask me in a half an hour

Kieron:

from now going, Oh, I forgot.

Kieron:

Yeah.

Kieron:

It's another thing that

Carmen:

anyone wants to hear more, also

Kieron:

was going to say, it's

Kieron:

another thing that keeps me

Kieron:

sane at the end of a busy day.

Kieron:

It's just a good way of unwinding,

Kieron:

sitting in, probably not sitting in

Kieron:

front of a computer, but sitting in

Kieron:

front of some musical instruments.

Kieron:

John and Connie: Absolutely.

Carmen:

All I was gonna say is if anyone

Carmen:

wants to hear more about the crazy

Carmen:

things that my dad decides to do on the

Carmen:

side, um, we have the Wonderful Podcast

Carmen:

as well, which is wonderfulpodcast.

Carmen:

com, and we talk about things

Carmen:

like house music on there, yoga

Carmen:

John and Connie: that up.

Carmen:

stuff.

Carmen:

John and Connie: I was remiss

Carmen:

in not mentioning that.

Carmen:

Yes, that you, you have

Carmen:

exactly a wonderful podcast.

Carmen:

Yes, you do.

Carmen:

So we'll link to that as well.

Carmen:

Thank you

Carmen:

John and Connie: Thank you so

Carmen:

great, really enjoyed it.

Carmen:

John and Connie: weather in Spain

Carmen:

and a wonderful weather in London.

Kieron:

great.

Kieron:

It's been our pleasure, really.

Kieron:

Thank you so much for

Kieron:

having us on the show.

Kieron:

Really enjoyed it.

Kieron:

John and Connie: well, thank you

Kieron:

for, and let's keep in touch.

Kieron:

We will.

Kieron:

Absolutely.

Kieron:

Definitely.

Kieron:

We'll keep you up to date with

Kieron:

progress in open banking in the US.

Kieron:

John and Connie: Fabulous.

Kieron:

Yes.

Kieron:

Thank you.

Kieron:

All right.

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